Welcome to a brand-new episode of BierTalk! Today, we’re taking you on a journey to one of Europe’s most iconic beer countries – Belgium. But this isn’t just about beer. It’s about legacy, innovation, and a family that’s been brewing for over six generations. Our guest is Jef Versele, head of the historic Brouwerij Van Steenberge near Ghent. With stories that stretch from horse-drawn beer carts to global success with the legendary Gulden Draak, Jef shares how his brewery survived world wars, family drama, and a changing beer world – all while staying true to its roots. From the wisdom of his grandfather to the strength of a great-grandmother who saved the business, from farmhouse ales to future-facing fermentation projects – this is not just a brewery; it’s a world of beer. So grab a glass, settle in, and join us for a heartfelt and inspiring conversation with one of Belgium’s most passionate brewers…

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BierTalk – Gespräche über und beim Bier.

Markus: Hello, and welcome to another episode of our podcast BierTalk. Today we’re doing an interesting journey into a neighbouring country, to one of the biggest and most interesting beer countries, we go to Belgium. And we see both an old and a new brewery in the north of Ghent. And it’s also maybe not a brewery or a beer, it’s a whole world of beers. So I’m very excited to meet a sixth-generation brewmaster. So, Jef Versele, great that you are here. Maybe you could introduce yourself a little bit to our listeners?

Jef: Yes, Markus, I’m Jef, Jef Versele. I’m the sixth-generation owner of the Brouwerij Van Steenberge. Our brewery was founded in 1784 and, like I’ve said many times, I don’t think that I have blood in my system, but I have beer in my system. And it’s true.

Markus: Wow, that’s a great story. But if you talk about your birth. So, do you remember when you realised your life would be about beer, about a brewery?

Jef: So, the brewery, for me, it was always holiday. So the brewery was from the side of my mother’s family and, when I was coming to the brewery, it was always like coming to the playground. I was going to visit my grandfather. And the passion that was created through the beer was created through my grandfather. I had an unbelievable respect. He was my ’Godfather’, he was my hero, and I looked up to him. So all my holidays I spent here, from my youth until I was studying. I was always spending my time here in Ertvelde because it was a phenomenal time, as a little child, having a grandfather who was a brewer. And that has always had a lot of impact on me. I had the pleasure of working with him for many years. He died at the age of 94, and I think his last day working was at the age of 93. So this man was phenomenal. He taught me almost everything I know today. And I’m very grateful for that but, like I said, the passion for the beer came more from the passion, or the love, that I have for my grandfather, he was quite an inspiring man.

Markus: So you more or less took over directly from him? Or was there someone in between?

Jef: No, there was somebody in between but, like I said, I worked directly for my grandfather. He also had his son involved in the brewery, the Steenberge. Unfortunately, he was looking for me, it´s like, how you look at it, he was not married, didn’t have any children, and he was more into the properties of the brewery, their own bars. My grandfather was more operating the brewery, so I had much more contact with my grandfather when it came to the brewery than I had with my uncle. And when my grandfather unfortunately disappeared, not that long after that my uncle also stopped operationally in the brewery.

Markus: And do you have some memories of how brewing was in these old times? When you were a child and running through the brewery as a big playground? What were the differences from brewing today?

Jef: It’s day and night. The only thing which is still the same is that we’re at the same location. It’s amazing to see and from time to time I have to be aware of that, what we have changed over the last 25 years, it’s incredible. But you see each stone, each brick you see or you touch in the brewery, it has a history, it has a story. When I was a small child, I remember that we had the horses here on the premises, we had the old brewhouse, we had the maltery, and I think the only building which is still left from all that is a small, old building where we now have a cool generator that’s standing. But all the rest has been changed over the years. But I remember, as a small child, you cannot compare the brewery with like it is today. When I started working here in the brewery in ’99, we had a production of 20,000 hectolitres of beer. Today we produce 185,000, so you can’t compare that any more. I always say, in those days there was more craftsmanship. It was like an art, it was like a true Ambacht Craft. Today it’s a little bit more industrial, so a lot has changed. But, okay, if you walk through the front door, if you view the house of my grandfather, it’s still there, not much from the outside has changed. But if you look closely, it’s a complete new brewery that we installed here in 25 years, which is insane.

Markus: Wow, that’s really the work of a lifetime, another lifetime, if you’re the sixth generation. And for you was it always clear that you would be the owner of the brewery, that you would do that job? Or did you at any time have another idea?

Jef: No, no. Because, like I said, it was from the side of my mother, my father also has a large company that’s producing animal foods for domestic and big animals, it’s quite a large company. It’s called Versele Lager, it’s very international. So there was one thing, I was sure that I was going to be an entrepreneur one day. The question was: was it going to be more into the direction of my father’s business, or more into the direction of my mother’s side of the business. And then if I you have the opportunity between drinking beer or tasting dog foods, the decision was made quite fast. I think that decision was also formed during the period when I started studying. Of course, if you have a brewer as a grandfather, or in the family, it’s always like you’re somebody’s passion. It seems that I always have more friends than other people, because I could provide them with good beer. So I remember this, so it was always a nice story, hey, you don’t have that many brewers, so it was always like you were special, you’d always experience that. We have one of the most beautiful work that exists in the world. I’m lucky that I can practise this beautiful job, because it’s one of a kind. And I’m impassioned by it, and when you’re in a group and nobody knows you, you always have a beautiful story to tell. And certainly like we have. We have a situation where there are not that many family businesses that have existed for that long. That’s what makes us different from a lot of the others, and what makes us also quite unique. I think in Belgium, the oldest brewery is now, for about 13 generations, Brouwerij Roman. So if you tell that that your brewery, our brewery as well, is older than the constitution of the United States, of the creation of Belgium, which is quite phenomenal. So that’s something of which I’m quite proud, and that’s something on which we try to put the emphasis because it makes us different from a lot of other brewers. Yes, indeed.

Markus: Yes, totally. And I’m a little bit, I have the same story sometimes here in Germany where, to be honest, Germany was founded as a country in 1871. So most of the breweries are older. And that also explains why we have so different ways of beer and drinking and whatever in the country. And you could never sit a Berlin guy next to a Munich guy. They would always do something different in terms of beer, just because it’s a different culture. So that’s really interesting, also if you look to Belgium. And when you were talking about your father’s side, the farmhouse, so it also goes a little bit back to the history of the brewery. As far as I know, it was founded as a farmhouse brewery, wasn’t it?

Jef: Yes, we were a farmhouse brewery. So, we were making beer during winter because there was no work on the land. And on top of that, cooling techniques did not exist. So we had to brew during winter. So the type of beer that we were making was like an ‘old brown’, like a sour ale, that was the first beer which we were making. And of course, you needed cold temperature. So the brewing season started in the end of October, November, and finished in March, April when hot weather was coming up again. But in Belgium, you have to know, it’s a little bit like in Germany, but in Belgium, for sure, you could only sell your beer if you also own the pub. So for many years, the policy or the strategy of the brewery was more linked to, yes, the more pubs we have, the bigger the brewery would be.At a certain moment, you should question yourself, what was the real business? Were we real estate managers or were we brewers? So that’s one of those things that I remember very well. So, when I was young, the brewery was run by the bars which were in the property of the brewery. And at that time, we were not only beer makers, but we were also making lemonade and soda drinks and soft drinks. So in our policy it was, the more we could supply the bar, the more the bar was connected to the brewery that has given us a monopoly on what the bar owner had to sell. The reason why we started doing our own lemonades and et cetera is to have full control over the bar. So that has been, for many years, the main policy of our brewery, through time, we were forced to change that policy. I’ll explain it a little bit later, but that’s one of those reasons, which is why it’s quite impressive if you see how it has changed, and how we have been able to adapt ourselves to the situation or to the changing markets. And that’s always what we have been doing. And that’s one of those stories that I always tell, is that our problem is that we’re too big to be small and too small to be big. And that’s one of those issues that we have had during the past and that we have still today: how are we able to adjust ourselves to the changing markets? And that has always been something which we can find back in our complete history. And I always tell it, we are too big to be small and too small to be big. So sometimes it has advantages, but sometimes it’s also the opposite. But to come back to the farming, so we were farmers, we started making a type of ‘old brown’. You also have to know that the situation or the role, or the importance of the bar was much more important than it is today. It was mainly the bar, the comfort in the bar was much better than the comfort that the people had at home on top of that. The water was not drinkable, so people had to drink beer to be safe. So that’s also a completely different situation from what it is today. If you look into our history, like I said, we were founded in 1784. We have a few key points and one of those key points of course was the First World War. In that period the brewery was occupied by the Germans, and the Germans introduced here into our brewery how to make lager beer. And because until that moment we did not have any knowledge of bottom fermentation, of low fermentation, it did not exist in our brewery. But the Germans introduced here how cooling techniques they had already experienced or they had already a lot of knowledge on glycol, ammonia cooling, so that existed already. So they helped us in changing the beer culture a little bit here in our brewery. So then we started to make lager beer and then, if you start making lager beer, okay, your world is changing. And that, combined with a bottle line, gives you a whole other dimension. But before I go that far, you shouldn’t forget that a very important key point in our history was the end of the First World War. In 1918, when the war was over, lots of breweries here in our area were destroyed. You have to know that, before the First World War, in this area and I’m speaking about the area where we are situated, in the north of Ghent. So, the north of Ghent, so then we are between Antwerp and Bruges, so we are up to the northern side, close to the Dutch border. And if you go from the Ghent area up to Bruges, you used to have in this area more than 358 breweries before the First World War. After that, more than 80% disappeared. And also we or the idea existed, is that my great-grandfather, Paul van Steenberge, who was a microbiologist, who was also mayor, he was a senator, he had lots of activities, and one of his activities was the brewery. But just to give you an idea that that man was a very important man. And after one of his meetings, he came home and he told his wife, Margit he told her, “Dear Margit, today I have sold the brewery, and I can become the president of a new formation, which is called the Krüger.” And the Krüger is a brewery which was founded after the First World War and was founded by 19 independent brewers from our area. And he could become the president of the group because his was the biggest brewery at that moment. And for him it was an easy solution because, by being the president of the brewers for a group, he was operationally less involved. And so that would give him more time to spend in politics, because he was very into politics. He was born for that, and he came home and he told his wife, he said, “Margit, today I have sold the brewery.” But Margit said, “Just a moment, Paul, I think you’ve made a mistake. First of all, this is not your brewery, this is my brewery. Its head is my father.” But I tell this as you have to see it in the spirit of the time. Today, we men, we don’t have that much say at home. But in those days, the position of the wife was a little bit different than it is today. And so she said, “No no, this is my brewery. I promised my father that I was born as a brewer’s daughter and I’m going to die as a brewer’s daughter. So you can go back to your friends and tell them that you cannot participate.” And that man was quite stubborn. He said, “If this is the case, I will never set a foot in the brewery again.” And he kept his word. So he never again set foot in the brewery.

But his wife ran the brewery together with her son, my grandfather. And I think that’s one of the most important lessons that he taught me, the first day when I started working here at the brewery. He said, “Jef, you never have the right to sell the brewery. You only have the right to sell the brewery if you’re forced to due to economic circumstances, because you’re responsible for your people who are working here, then you have the authority to do so. But you cannot sell the brewery for your own profit, that’s impossible. And when you sell, at least you need to offer the brewery first to a family member.” So the family member always has the first right to buy the brewery, instead of a third party. And that’s something which he repeated many times. So my grandfather’s philosophy was always the next generation. So, “Jef, what is your mission?” My mission is to hand over the brewery to the seventh generation. That’s the only mission that I have. And he was quite convinced of that. But to come back to my great-grandmother, it’s thanks to her that the brewery still exists. And to honour her, I have put a statue on my rooftop bar. I was inspired by a Flemish artist who is called Jan Fabre. And if you come to the city of Ghent at the Museum of Modern Art, there’s a beautiful statue of a man who’s measuring the clouds. And also from a young child, I was inspired by that man who was measuring the clouds. How can you measure clouds? It’s impossible.

But I was always inspired by that. And I said, “Okay, I will make a statue for my great-grandmother, to honour her and to thank her that it’s thanks to her that the brewery still exists. So I put a beautiful statue on my rooftop bar in which my great-grandmother is sitting on the rooftop bar. And she’s handing over, and she’s saluting all the people who are driving to our beautiful street, the Lindenlaan. I always say this is the Champs Élysées of Ertvelde  and she’s saluting the people with a glass of Augustijn in her hand. And it’s thanks to that powerful woman that the brewery still exists. And that’s a story that I always tell. When I have visitors listen, it’s a history that you have to pass on. It’s how you are working, it’s how important it is. It’s not just an economic mission that you have, but you also have a responsibility of the five generations before you who have built up this business, to continue the story. And that makes us unique and that makes us or makes me very proud. And I hope that I can pass this feeling also onto the next generation because, like I said once already, we have a beautiful profession. We are a product, and that’s what bothers me the most lately, how alcohol comes into the news in a negative way. We have to stop doing that. We have to tell positive stories about our business and what we do for society, and how we bring people together and what we are changing into society. And I think that message is much more important than speaking about the risks of alcohol consumption.

Marjus: Yeah, and maybe also the idea that, when the brewery started, it did not only produce alcoholic beer, it also produced a lot of other beverages. And maybe that’s also part of the solutions, to adapt again to the market, to the new circumstances, and then maybe go back to this.

Jef: Well, that’s for sure. That’s what I’m saying. So, whether you like it or not, I’m convinced that 25% of our market is going to disappear between now and 10 years. So that’s also one of the reasons why I started up a small microbrewery, a test plant, not that far away from the brewery, which is called the Hopspot, in which we are doing lots of new batches, in which we are experimenting with the new styles of beer, which we are doing some development on the level of non-alcoholic, but also kombuchas, protein things and et cetera. Because I think we need to stay into our business and we are good in fermentation. Fermentation, that’s our DNA. So, we are looking now to extend our business with tests on that level. And of course, who knows, maybe between now and three, four years, we will find a product in which I think that we’ll have some potential. But we cannot miss the train. If we miss that train, for me, it’s like standing still or going backwards, and that’s not an option. And there’s no option. We need to continue developing. We need to continue growing. Unfortunately, economics-wise, we need to do this. And, of course, this is lately a little bit more difficult than it was before. Because before, like I said, that 25 years in the business, we had for at least 23, 22 years organic growth. And the world is a village. And we were also ‘surfing’ a little bit on the image of Belgian Beer. I do think that Belgian brewers have made a few mistakes. But okay, good, the image was still there or is still there. But it’s standing under the influence of a lot of very good craft, which is developing everywhere. But it’s up to us to be creative. It’s up to us to be a step ahead and to be like our grandfathers. Like my grandfather was, when he was starting with craft over speciality beer. Today, everybody speaks about doubles, triples, ‘quad’s, eight parts, you name it. But my grandfather was on that level, was a pioneer. Nobody believed in that category, but lucky that he did that, that he changed his philosophy. And the philosophy has been made not because of luxury. The philosophy has been followed due to the necessity of changing. Because if he had not changed, and stayed in the classic lager beer markets, I would not think that I would be sitting here today. I think the brewery would have disappeared already a long time ago.

Markus: Yeah, I think that there’s also some part of this story again, because it’s always necessary to adapt to change. And I see it in some Belgian breweries that also switched first from ale to lager, but then also right in time switched back from lagers to ales to find a new way of surviving, and have their own brand and everything around that. And maybe we can have a little word about your maybe most well-known brand? It’s called the Gulden Draak. And it’s a 10.5% beer, or some of it, it’s a wider range, but maybe you could introduce to us a little bit how that was created, and maybe also a little bit about the name?

Jef: Well, first maybe we should back go a little bit. So, like I said, we ended there at the First World War, when my grandmother decided not to sell the brewery, that it was not for sale.Then of course you have the interbellum, the period between the First and the Second World War, in which it was very difficult for us. And then my grandfather started to see what the impact was of what was changing, what the problem was. So you also have the beginning of the formation of large, larger brewer groups. And okay, you have to compete against bigger players. When you have bigger players, you have more money, when you have more money, you can buy better locations. If you want to have a good bar, you need to have a good location. That’s the most important point. Then, of course, a good bar manager or bar owner. That’s also very important. But the location is also important. So it became very difficult for my grandfather to compete. On top of that, his former brewer colleagues became beer distributors. You also have the start of marketing and development of big brands. The brands are developed, which has an impact also on our business. So we were just selling locally. You then have a certain moment you get competition from Stella. You get competition from Alken-Maas. You get lots of different competitions in which it became very difficult for us. And at some moment, my grandfather was the president of the brewers’ formation. He was the president of the small, middle-sized brewers. And one of his best friends was the owner of the brewery. And he inspired my grandfather. He said, “Mr Jozef, if you want to survive with your brewery, you have to start making speciality beer.” But telling somebody “You have to start making speciality beer”, it’s not that easy. First of all, we did not have any experience. My grandfather said, “Maybe I should give that a try.” We started then first with high fermentation. And then we were very lucky that my grandfather met the Augustinian Order. They were looking for contract brewers. My grandfather won that competition. And like that, we started to make not only high fermentation, but we also started with the refermentation. And we were very lucky that the Augustinian Order had a very famous brew engineer, Janus who was a member of the Augustinian family. And he introduced my grandfather really into the art of high fermentation and refermentation. And all of what we are speaking today, that’s the basics. The basics had been formed by the vision of my grandfather to decide at a certain moment “Oh my God,” as a classic brewer with his own bars, with his own lager beer, “I don’t have any future. I need to change.” And like I said, it was not a change out of luxury, it was a change out of necessity. So that’s how he changed. And he said, “Yeah, I need to give it a try.” And we were lucky that we met the Augustinian Order. And the Augustinian Order insisted that the brew advisor became the advisor of the brewery. And like that, we started to build that culture of high fermentation. And okay, of course, it was also with ups and downs, ups and downs. But okay, we were one of the pioneers. That was us. That was the Brouwerij de Koninck. That was the Brouwerij and those were the first in speciality beer. Then you had the first commercial one, which was then De Honsebrouck, with Kasteelbier, which made a switch. It was really the beginning. And now I’m speaking of the late ’60s, the early ’70s. And then of course, in this area, in the area of Ghent, we were very lucky, because there was also a changing pub culture. You had the, like the beer institutes, all those famous bars. They helped a lot in the development of speciality beer. And before that, it was mainly considered as something which is owned by Trappists or by monks. But you see this, there’s some change. And we were one of the first, my grandfather was one of the first and like I said, my grandfather was a true, authentic brewer. He was always making beer for himself. And he was never satisfied with the result. I remember, every Friday we had the tasting at 11 o’clock. And it was always the same at the end of the tasting, our beer was always the best, it was always the best, I remember. But my grandfather instructed to his brewmaster, he said, “Maybe in this brew you have to change this, or you have to change that.” So he always wanted to improve his beer, to make it better, but if the result was the opposite of the idea that he had, he never complained. He said, “Yeah okay, it’s my fault, I take the responsibility for this.” But he was always eager to change, to make it better. I said, “No. no, grandfather, the posity stopp, don’t touch it, leave it as it is. The customers are happy.” The only problem my grandfather had, like I said, was that he was making beer for himself, he was not making beer for somebody else. So it was his taste or no taste. And he was not a marketer. He didn’t believe in marketing. He didn’t want to spend money on marketing. He he’d believed in the power of a brand, I think we should have been, I think that we missed something. He was always making beer, so that we became a little bit the number one brewery to go to if you want to have your beer produced by us. The main, I would say, my grandfather was always making beer for his friends. And because he was the president of the Brewers’ Associatio, and then he said to this brewery, “Maybe I should make you some speciality beers now.” So he made beer for a lot of his colleagues but, as you know, when it has a certain volume, the colleagues decide to make it themselves, and because it was much more interesting to make it themselves. So that was always the story of our brewery. So we rose, we took a few thousand hectolitres more, so we lost again. Because my grandfather never believed in the brand. But over time that changed, because he saw it as well, he said, “I have to invest a little bit in my brand.” So our main brand has always been Augustijn, but that was regionally. Then in ’86, at a certain moment my grandfather was making a beer for a village close to ours, for the Brouwerij which doesn’t exist any more and they had a beer which was called De Bruegel Bier. They were making Bruegel Bier, and that was for a local music group, he has making that beer. And when he was making the beer, we had our Italian importer on a visit. And he said to my grandfather, “Ah, Mr Jozef, I would like to try this beer.” And my grandfather said, “Yes, you can try it,” and he said, “Oh my, this is phenomenal. This is the best beer I’ve ever drunk.” You have to know, it’s a dark triple, of 10.5 % APV, a dark ’tripel’ of 10.5. Now, I’m speaking of the year ’86, that was insane, huh? But it was very hard to make, so there was one batch. And, like always, my grandfather always said no. “No, I will not make it for you.” But how do you convince a brewer? You convince a brewer by giving him some hectolitres. I would say that we’re ‘prostitutes to volume’. We say no but, if somebody gives you 1000 hectolitres, you say yes. The Italian said to my grandfather, “Listen, Mr Jozef, I’m going to buy 100 hectolitres.” 100 hectolitres in those days, that was like a month’s work. So my grandfather said, “It’s okay.” Then the Italian guy said to my grandfather, “Maybe we should put this beer into a white bottle.” In a white bottle, can you imagine? Nobody had ever come up with that idea. My grandfather said, “Why shouldn’t we try?” And then he named it Gulden Draak, after the statue of the dragon which is on the belfry of the city of Ghent, which I also have a very beautiful story about. So like that, something unique was born. The advantage of this type of beer, and the advantage for a brewery like ours, is that it’s very difficult to make good lager beer. That’s what people always underestimate, how to make consistently good lager beer. For us, our brewery is too small to have consistently very good lager beer. So high fermentation, refermentation was the solution, because our installation was not the best in those days. We had a lot of impact of oxidation on our beer, the impact of oxygen on our way of working was huge. So the refermentation helped us by creating products which have a longer shelf life. And, in the mind of the consumer, that you have, like, ‘living Bier’. The consumer will accept that there are some taste changes over time. In a lager you don’t have that. So this was first, “Oh, good opportunities to come around, with being not the best brew, not having the best equipment.” Then, of course, with a beer like Gulden Draak, which is a beer of 10.5 %, I can tell you that there is nothing that can grow in a beer of 10.5. So, consistently, I think it was the beer which was always good. With Augustijn we have our ups and our downs because, in Augustijn, for the refermentation we use wine yeast, and there we suffered, because we did not have the yeast under control. On top of that, in our brewery today we have six different yeast strengths. Of course, in those days, there was no knowledge, today there’s already a little bit more knowledge, but not everything is known about the yeast culture. And that’s what I’m always saying: “That’s our DNA.” Today as well. In what are we unique? We’re unique because we still propagate our own yeast culture. We have six different types of yeast which we use, of which we use two in the first fermentation and four in the refermentation. But in the refermentation and that is a success, I’m almost convinced, but I have to stay modest), but I think that we are one of the best when it comes to second fermentation. Not only second fermentation in the bottle, but also in the keg. And then we are very blessed that my grandfather brought a wine yeast to our brewery, and the wine yeast can cope much more easily with higher alcohols than the beer yeast does. And that’s the success of Gulden Draak. So, you’re drinking a beer of 10.5, and it doesn’t come in like a beer of 10.5, it comes in like a beer which is quite easy to drink, and that’s due to the refermentation which we do on this beer. If I produced Gulden Draak or Piraat without second fermentation, you would have, like, an alcoholic ‘bomb’. In this you don’t. Yeah, okay, the beer is still strong, but it’s also all in the mind. People drink wine of 14% APV, but drinking beer of 10.5, it’s like a crime, eh? It’s not true. The advantage of that it’s also how we’re trying to position the beer as a barley wine. It’s more like a wine that it is a beer. And of course, like what we’re saying, it’s a living Bier, so we’re convinced it’s good today, and it will be better tomorrow, but I prefer that you drank it yesterday. The advantage for the market-to-be is that you can keep it easily 10, 15, 20 years, it’s capable of it still today. And that’s where I come in, I started in ’99, we were producing 300 hectolitres of Gulden Draak. And my grandfather told me, we were only working four days a week, I said to my grandfather, “You know what? Friday, Saturday, I will sell beer.” I decided quite fast to sell beer abroad. And from the beginning, I travelled a lot to the United States a lot. Why to the States? Because it was a developing beer market. But the biggest advantage is that you have a market there in which you don’t have one account, you always have a chain of accounts. You have 10, 20, 30, 40 restaurants which will support your beer. So with one contract you could supply 40 bars at once. I brought something nobody knew and something new. I said to my grandfather, “I’m only going to sell Gulden Draak”, also because it was unique, a dark triple, and it’s in a white-painted bottle. For the Americans I had to put on the bottle in the beginning: “Watch Out, This Is Not Milk”, because normally a white bottle is a milk bottle, but this one was for ‘Bier’, so I had to put that on the label and we started. And my grandfather said to me, “Jef, you’re crazy. Why are you selling Gulden Draak?” He said, “This beer is too strong. This is beer for people with problems.” I can say today that I’m very happy that there are a lot of people with a lot of problems, hey? So today we produce close to 40,000 hectolitres of Gulden Draak. 40,000. If you had told me that 15 years ago, I would have signed a contract ‘blind’. And I do believe that, for sure, and that’s the proof, we need to be unique in a niche market that we have to operate in. I have to do something that someone else is not doing. If I’m doing something that someone else is doing, I can’t compete, because I will always be too expensive or there will be somebody who can produce more cheaply than we can. But in Gulden Draak we have something unique. Then of course you start to extend the portfolio, so we started with the classic, then I brought the Brewmaster, then I brought the Quad, then we got the Stout, the Smoked, the Fire. Now we do a lot of barrel ageing on that line. I think that maybe now I’m at the maximum extent of the line. But I think that if we’ve achieved something, I think, if I can say so, Gulden Draak is a small, recognised, worldwide brand.

Markus: Yes, it’s a world of beer in itself, and to be honest, I have almost all of them in my cellar, and also some quite old ones. And what I really like is, as you said, you have the wine yeast, and this really gives the beer this wine-like finish, with a little fruitiness, with a little dry tartness. It’s so great, and it makes the drinkability so high, and it’s a very dangerous beer, to be honest, because, as you say, it drinks easily.

Jef: It drinks easily, but it needs some practice, so you get used to it, eh? For me, it’s like a barley wine, it’s the perfect beer. I prefer it when it’s six months’ old, it has so much materialisation that you can keep the beer. I love it. And it goes well with every form of food, certainly with all different types of meat dishes. It also goes very well with blue cheese, it’s a perfect match, a perfect match.

Markus: Absolutely. It’s perfect for food pairing in many ways, we have it a lot in menus. Just one thing for clarification, you said that it was initially, like, a dark triple? You also threw in a ‘barley wine’ term, and now there’s also a version called Quadruple Piraat. So, for all the guys out there who are not so familiar with the differences between these terms, or styles, or however you call it, how would you say the original is or where’s the borderline to, say, a quad or whatever?

Jef: Well, for me, obviously no discussion, it’s a dark triple. Where does the word tripel come from? Tripel means that the brewmaster is going to use three times as much malt as for normal beer. By marketing, in conversation, people think that a double is dark and the triple is blond, that’s not true. So it’s a dark triple, that’s for sure. Its high fermented and it’s refermented. In the brewhouse, what’s special for this beer is that we use. I would only use malt, I can never attempt the alcohol from 10.5, so we need to add quite some beet sugar. I won’t tell you how much sugar we have to put in, because you’ll stop drinking the beer.

Markus: It’s fermented!

Jef: It’s fermented, yes, exactly. And then for the refermentation we use some invert sugar. But for me, for sure it’s a dark triple, no question.

Markus: And where would you say is the borderline to a quad, or maybe a Grand Cru? It’s always hard to define.

Jef: Our own-brand quad us dark, with an extra batch of Municher malt, which is a quad so, four times. For me, we positioned the Grand Cru in the triple. The Grand Cru commercially is a little bit nicer, that’s why we use Grand Cru.

Markus: It’s interesting to see how these names …

Jef: And then you have our barrel-aged beers, which we bring under the Cuvée Prestige. And that’s also the beauty of Gulden Draak. The Gulden Draak is the beer which ages the best, and it’s also a beer which, I’ve done cognac, I’ve done calvados, I’ve done bourbon, so what we do, when the beer comes out of the lager tank, because we don’t pasteurise, fermented. And the problem is, in Gulden Draak, like I said, it’s 21 degrees plateau, the classic Gulden Draak, the Krombach Stout is 25 degrees plateau, right? I can assure you that it’s quite some stress for the yeast culture, that’s why I always repropagate fresh yeast. I cannot cultivate my yeast and re-use the yeast, because the alcohol creates too much stress, and the vitality of the yeast gets attacked. So it cuts back from the start of the propagating I try to have a start VDK of 98% to be sure that our yeast is in top condition. If the yeast is not in top condition, the fermenting will take not eight days, but take 14, 16, 18 days. That’s very important for us so that, when we propagate the yeast, we always have fresh yeast. That’s one thing. Second, we do not pasteurise. So, we’re going to determine our basic yeast by a long Lager Beer, minimum 24 days. So the Gulden Draak, when it comes from the fermenter, we start the cooling on the fermenter, we cool to minus 1, we keep it three to four days in the fermenter and then it goes into the lager tank. In the lager tank I keep it from 18 to 24 days, and then we take it out. For my Barrel Aged Biere, I take it out from the lagertank, and then it goes into the banks there. We have banks from 180 to 240 litres. And there we let it sit at a temperature of 16 degrees. We let it sit, and then you see the fusion, so the taste of the barrel goes into the beer. Because of the high alcohol content, the beer is very well protected, so you don’t see any infection occurring in those barrels, because the beer is protected by itself, yeah? And then it depends on the type of barrel, and whether it’s the first, second or third time that we have used it. Then we keep the beer between 20 and 30 weeks in depends. But that’s one thing on which we’ve been working very hard lately. Those we bring out under the Cuvée Prestige, the most popular one is the one which is on the Laphroaig-barrels, which has a very a very peaty taste. All those bottles we sell online, and most of our Barrel Aged Beeres the go on vine, because it’s for a specific consumer, I can tell you, they sell quite well. Now I developing also a distillery, so that’s my next project. I’m going to build a distillery to be able to re-use those barrels and then to make whisky, and then to have a whisky with a beertaste. That’s my ultimate project. So I think that, with that project, I will be able to hand over this brewery to the next generation. And when the next generation starts, that’s for sure, I will stop, I will stop. So, I have three children, I hope that one of my children comes into my footsteps and takes over the brewery, and then I think I can spend some time on other things, I think.

Markus: That really sounds like a perfect plan, both ways, the distillery and handing ove. Just one question about the Barrel Aged Bieres, because I’m also a big fan. And what I really like is the marriage between the different barrels, or spirits, and the beer, which always turns out wonderful, very harmonic, very balanced, and you always have both the beer and the spirit. Do you blend different ones or do you always use single barrels? How do you do that, that you get to this perfect match?

Jef: No, we do not blend, I don’t blend them. I use the barrel only three times, but then we see that the taste is gone, I can only use them three times, but I don’t blend. But it’s true that the first time the production will be high, and the second time a little bit less, and the third time less. So let’s say that, if you had 100 litres the first time, in that case I’ll add some extra Gulden Draak, which has not been in the barrels, so that I have a little bit more. But it depends on the taste, how aggressive it is. And you shouldn’t forget that the biggest challenge there is also because of the refermentation. The refermentation, which is also applied with these bottles, is that the yeast will take away a lot of the aroma. That’s always something of which I’m afraid, to which standard can you go? And, of course, we don’t have enough experience to see, but I see that with those Barrel Aged Bieres, I prefer to drink them quite young. Like I said, I’ve been doing this now for four, five years and the idea came, I started with that with the Brewmaster. And once on my trip, if you go to the States, you see it quite often, you see a lot of breweries which are also distilleries. It’s normal, ‘in ground’ we have the same DNA – we are starting from the same basic product. So that’s when it was formed, and then the Brewmaster, for me it’s always been important. I want this beer to be available to everybody. I don’t want it to become, like, a luxury product. And of that we actually have to be very careful. If I see at what prices wine has been sold, then I think we can be very lucky. But we have to bring the potential, or how people look at our products, that we need to change. That’s what we have been doing. And then, I think would like to refer to our latest project, which is Fourchette, which is phenomenal. That’s a beer which I have developed together with a Michelin chef. It’s a blend of a very floral type of wheat beer, but it’s not a wheat beer which we planned with a Tripel, which has been made just for the gastronomy. We try to sell this beer for the gastronomy, and with that I tried to tackle a business where normal booze would not go. I think there, for us, there’s still lots of potential. That’s our fastest-growing brand. Believe it or not, it’s our fastest-growing brand. The packaging is top, so we try to bring premium, premium, premium, premium and then, you see, okay, if you bring a beer product in a premium packaging, with a top-quality product, there’s still some potential and you attract people who would normally not be drinking beer. So it’s a little bit out of our comfort zone, but it gives us a lot of insights into what’s happening. And I do believe, first, that that’s the market where we need to be. Like I told you, I have to be in the market, I can’t be, I’m not a mass player. We are a small player, we need to be different on every level. We should not be copying other, popular stuff. We should be doing our own stuff. I think that’s one of our, if I can say ‘success’, okay, I am quite proud of what we have achieved. But we aren’t there yet. So much work and, like I said, too many ideas, not enough time, being too small to be big and too big to be small. So that’s our problem. And then, you have a business to run, you can’t forget that you have a business to run, in the end. If you’d asked me, “Jef, what has changed the most?”, I can be very mad if people ask me, “Can I visit your factory?” This is not a factory, it’s a brewery. But we are getting into a ‘factory’ mentality and that’s something which is dangerous, dangerous.

Markus: I can also refer to the Fourchette because, when I was in your brewery last time, you offered us this beer, and I really had it the whole evening. So it’s really a great beer.

Jef: It’s sold in a premium packaging, we took a Bordeaux glass, a wineglass, thin glass, so the taste comes out very well. The balance of the floral, the beer has a taste that has a very, how do you say in English, floral taste that, combined with the bitterness, it’s an unbelievably good match. In that I have also done some barrel-ageing that I’ve done on Sauvignon Blanc barrels, and I have done on Vermouth. If you ask me, on Vermouth, I think it’s the best beer I have ever made in my entire life. The marriage of the Vermouth barrel with the beer, it’s insane. So I think there’s still a market. There are so many beautiful things to be developed, and I think that’s the future for the brewery. And, yes, I’m very optimistic, and yes, I do believe in the opportunities, for sure.

Markus: And in terms of Fourchette, I can only say you always discover another aroma, another interesting …

Jef: Exactly.

Markus: … aspect, so that’s what I really like, that it changes the whole time, but that it’s always nice, and also that it’s perfect also for the food we had, so it was really a great one. And also, in terms of the Laphroaig special version, I have a very little story, because I gave it to the brewmaster of our famous Schlenkerla Smokebeer brewery here in Bamberg, I don’t know if you know about smoke beer in Bamberg?

Jef: Yes, and I was inspired, that’s why I made the Gulden Draak Smoked. My grandfather was a big fan!

Markus: Great! So I gave him the beer, after a big tour he gave for a group of our sommeliers, as a present. The next day we met, and he said, “Oh, you ruined my day, because I wanted to have a little sip in the evening, and I drank the whole bottle”. So that’s really interesting, that’s a really great one. We’re almost at the end, just a last question, so that you can introduce a little bit to our listeners to the world that they will enter. So, I visited your brewery, I visited the Hopspot, and maybe you can say just a few words, if people come and they have a lot of questions, we could still talk for five hours, but they can maybe ask their questions there so, how could they visit the breweries, both of them? How does it work?

Jef: They can always send an e-mail to info@vansteenberge.com, you can look at our website, it’s www.vansteenberge.com. We always have public tours in which you can subscribe yourself. In summer we do one on Wednesday, one on Saturday, and we combine that also with a visit at our microbrewery the Hopspot. So those two combined is a very nice day out. When you send an e-mail, it’s almost 99% for sure that you will be ‘seized’, and somebody here in the brewery will give you a tour.

Markus: Fantastic. So, thank you very much for the time here in the podcast, for all you do for the beer world, for all these great beers, also for the great time we had at your brewery so, of course, I wish you all the best for this day, this week, the upcoming time, and hope to see you soon in your breweries and to have a nice beer!

Jef: I hope to see you soon as well. Thank you so much for the opportunity, and thanks to your listeners and the people who are following you, because without consumers, no brewery, eh? And we have to be, like I said from the beginning, the biggest danger for our industry is coming from the non-drinkers. So we have to put, what do we contribute to the business? That I think is very important. That’s what I tell my brewer colleagues as well, speak about the good things, how we bring people together and how we build memories. It’s not about this, it’s about memories and I think that will always survive. And I think, as a brewer, we have a social obligation to bring people together. Because people need to be together. Because that helps society much more than anything else. So, thank you for this opportunity to let me tell my story. And, like I said, you’re always welcome for a good beer.

BierTalk – Der Podcast rund ums Bier. Alle Folgen unter www.biertalk.de.