BierTalk English 22 – Talk with Alfie Amayo, Head Destiller of Seekers Spirit House in Phnom Penh, Cambodia

Markus: Biertalk - Gespräche über und beim Bier. Hello and welcome to another episode of our podcast, Beer Talk. Today we're taking a very interesting journey east from our European perspective. We're going to Cambodia, a small but beautiful country, where we meet a wonderful person, Alfie Amayo. He's the head distiller at Seekers Independent Spirits, and I'm very curious to hear about his story, the spirits, and everything around them. It's great to have you here, Alfie. Maybe you can introduce yourself to our listeners.

Alfie Amayo: Thank you for having me. Yes, as you mentioned, my name is Alfie, I'm the head distiller of Seekers Independent Spirits, which is one of few independent distilleries in Cambodia, which is an emerging market for alcohol. Whilst it is unknown, the alcohol industry here is starting to grow quite rapidly given its ASEAN connections. And it's an exciting time to be in the industry, especially in this part of the world at the moment.

Markus: Yeah, that really sounds very interesting. And maybe first our people, I think they don't really know Cambodia, so I think they know it's close to Vietnam and it's in the southeast. But maybe you can describe a little bit what it's about, how does it look like, how are the people, what is the idea of the country?

Alfie Amayo: Of course. I think when it comes to Southeast Asia, Cambodia hasn't quite got the tourism PR, if you will, that Vietnam and Thailand have, but it sits right here on the Mekong and is very close to those two neighboring countries. As an emerging market, it is a fantastic place to build a new distillery. It gives us access to a plethora of new ingredients and botanicals, so that we can produce some really high-quality liquid, if I can be so biased as to say that. But on a personal level, coming from London, where I was also making spirits, Cambodia has really found a place in my heart. It's the people. The people here really make living in Cambodia an exciting experience. After being here for nearly six years, I can honestly say it has become my new home outside London.

Markus: Wow, that sounds great. Maybe is there a traditional beer or spirit market or did it have to be built up from scratch?

Alfie Amayo: Good question. As we built it from scratch, I remember when we first started the business in Cambodia. And we spent about a year producing the first gin, our first products, because we now make a few different SKUs and products, whether it's gin, vodka or bottled cocktails. But when we first produced the gin itself and we were going to these independent hotels, restaurants, bars, there was a mixed reaction. On one end, we had the excitement of bars and restaurants being like, oh my God, a Cambodian gin. We're happy to support you. Fantastic. But on the other hand, we had clientele being like, this is fantastic. But our clientele here don't drink gin, they drink whiskey. And Cambodia still remains a very strong whiskey market. Obviously you have Johnnie Walker here being a major player in the market. So even though it's an emerging market, there is a very big desire and need for high end spirits in Cambodia, which to this day I still find very interesting and a welcome opportunity when it comes to trying to produce premium spirits in the country.

Markus: But you concentrate on gin at the moment, or is the whiskey also an idea coming up?

Alfie Amayo: Whisky is definitely an idea. Even as I say it now - producing a Cambodian whisky - I can already see some of your listeners raising their eyebrows and asking, is that possible? But we have everything here; we have all the possibilities. In Southeast Asia, the climate is well suited to producing the raw materials for spirits. We already have a high concentration of sugar cane, so there is a flourishing rum industry here. We ourselves produce our base spirit using cassava. There is also a lot of corn, and that is what will form the base of our whisky as we look to make it in the next two years or so.

Markus: Sounds fantastic. And we just talked a little bit when we talked before the podcast that I've been to Taiwan and you are exporting there and they also have a very good high quality whiskey producers there. So I think it's definitely possible to make high quality and good whiskies in Southeast Asia. And there are a lot of advantages in terms of the climate and things where maybe it even may be more interesting or more aroma intense and these things. As you talked about the special ingredients from Cambodia, could you say some of these you found which are unique to Cambodia, which you use for your spirits?

Alfie Amayo: Honestly, all of the botanicals were unique to me, coming from London. I remember when I first came here back in 2017, my initial plan was to stay for only a month, consult initially, then continue travelling and continue my consultancy from London before heading towards Australia. Then I came here and, as I mentioned, the plan was to stay for a month. I ended up staying, falling in love with the place, and I remained. On day one, my colleagues Tania and Marco, the founders behind Seekers, had sourced maybe 50 or 55 different herbs and spices from around the country. I remember arriving and seeing all these different spices and herbs on the table. There was pandan, there was jackfruit, a whole assortment of different things. I remember looking at the table and thinking, I don't know what any of this stuff is. So it was a very big learning curve for me. When we started producing these spirits and doing the R&D, talking to local bartenders and chefs was integral to understanding the flavor profiles and how all these things come together. It was my first interaction with these herbs and spices in the context of bringing them together in a spirit. So it was a massive learning curve, and I'm really proud of what we've managed to achieve over the last five years. I think a testament to that is the positive reaction to our spirit portfolio. We tried to find a balance between Western palates and local ingredients, and it was a difficult path to navigate without alienating either demographic.

Markus: I heard about very special local ingredients they also use. I heard they eat a lot of insects. So, like tarantulas. Did you already have the chance to try that? And is that also a possible ingredient for spirits?

Alfie Amayo: I have indeed eaten tarantulas. Yes. That's not a common dish. So I don't want any of your listeners to think that if they come to Cambodia, they go to a restaurant and they're like, yes, have our local delicacy. You do have that market here. But when you do see tarantulas and snakes being sold, it is locals here or local Cambodians who have a much more entrepreneurial mindset. And they are catering this almost exclusively to tourists themselves who want to come in, eat a tarantula, take the picture kind of mentality. And so that itself, when I first came into Cambodia and I was much younger and a lot more willing to try exotic stuff, I was like, yeah, okay, I'm happy to try tarantula. Anyone wondering, no, it does not taste good whatsoever, but it's something I can now tick off my bucket list. But in terms of flavor profile itself, there's a whole wide assortment of ingredients and spices outside of insects and arachnids that really kind of add a very distinctive flavor profile that you get In Cambodia.

Markus: Okay, so no, no tarantula gin at the moment.

Alfie Amayo: No tarantula gin. Well, you know what? I bet you with the way that gin is going in the market right now, if it hasn't already been made, give it another few more years and I'm sure someone will produce a gin and put a tarantula inside it as a marketing initiative.

Markus: Okay, yes, that would be very special. Maybe. As you know. As you know, we are a beer podcast. So is there anything about a beer market in Cambodia? Are there breweries? Is there beer around? Do people drink beer?

Alfie Amayo: Oh, beer is massive out here, especially in the region itself. Our neighbor Vietnam has a very large beer market, and a particularly exciting craft-beer scene with a broad range of flavor profiles. Thailand, on the other hand, has a much more tightly regulated beer market, with major players such as Singha, so it is much harder to enter. Cambodia sits somewhere between those two models. It is a market that is very ripe for craft brewers. The problem is that, as an emerging market, breweries and distilleries have yet to see Cambodia as a place where they can really deploy assets and grow something. There are larger breweries with fairly similar taste profiles, while the smaller craft breweries are few and far between. Unfortunately, during COVID there wasn't much support for local craft breweries, so a number of them shut down during the pandemic. Those that remained, I believe, were the strongest of the craft breweries, and they've managed to grow and strengthen their foothold in the country.

Markus: And how has it been for you during the pandemic? Was there like we had these lockdowns and things? How was it in Cambodia?

Alfie Amayo: It was interesting. It was, I think, for ourselves, certainly we were delayed. So we saw everything that was happening in the west, obviously, reports on the news and countries going into lockdown and people staying at home. But ultimately Cambodia was in this weird limbo period where we were still able to go out, we were still able to go clubbing. I remember when London went to lockdown and my mother was at home and she was saying, I can't go out right now. And at the time I was still going out to bars, to restaurants, because Cambodia had really managed to put its hold on Controlling the spread of COVID And then inevitably, just with so many points of access into the country, they couldn't hold it any longer. And then as a developing country, I think we felt the effects a lot harder than they had in the West. And not only that, there was a lot more support in the west than there was in Cambodia as well. So when we did go into lockdown here, which we did for about two months, which compared to some countries actually is not that much, we did a feel it. And not only that, the government here put a block, if you will, on alcohol production for a variety of reasons. One, they want some of the alcohol to be used for sanitation or hand sanitizer, but also because they felt that alcohol production would bring people together, bring the crowds in, and therefore that would also spread. Spread COVID. So their immediate reaction was a lot more reactionary as opposed to being proactive. And so we saw new things happening every single week, almost every single day, which you couldn't quite plan for. So when we shut down, we really felt it. But now that we're in 2023, the market is starting to really blossom. Tourism's back in and we're excited about the next.

Markus: Yeah. And that brings us a little bit back to your personal story. So you already said you're coming from London, so how was your development there? Did you come into the beer, into the spirits? How did it go that you ended up here in Cambodia?

Alfie Amayo: It was interesting. For us, certainly, the impact was delayed. We saw everything that was happening in the West - reports on the news, countries going into lockdown, people staying at home - but Cambodia was in this strange limbo period where we were still able to go out and still able to go to bars and clubs. I remember when London went into lockdown and my mother was at home saying, 'I can't go out right now,' while at the time I was still going out to bars and restaurants because Cambodia had managed to keep a hold on the spread of COVID. Inevitably, with so many points of access into the country, they couldn't hold it any longer. As a developing country, I think we felt the effects much harder than they did in the West, and there was also a lot more support in the West than there was in Cambodia. When we did go into lockdown here, which lasted about two months - not that long compared with some countries - we really felt it. The government also put a block on alcohol production for a variety of reasons. One was that they wanted some of the alcohol to be used for sanitation and hand sanitizer. They also felt that alcohol production and sales would bring people together and create crowds, which could spread COVID. Their response was therefore more reactionary than proactive, and we saw new measures happening every week, almost every day, which made it impossible to plan. So when we shut down, we really felt it. But now that we're in 2023, the market is starting to blossom again. Tourism is back, and we're excited about what comes next.

Markus: Maybe the longest month ever.

Alfie Amayo: Do you know what? That's a very good question. Even now, when I tell my friends that I'm in Cambodia making gin or making spirits, the reaction is: how on earth did you end up doing that? Long story short, I entered the alcohol industry essentially by accident, as I think many people in London do. Growing up, there was never a particular desire to work in alcohol; it wasn't really presented as a vocational career. It was something I just fell into. When I was at college, I initially wanted to study medicine - a very different path from where I am now. I was bartending, as many students do. I was 18 or 19 at the time and did it to supplement my student life. One of the first places I worked was the City of London Distillery. The team had collected an assortment of different gins from around the world, and gin was also made on the premises. That gave me firsthand experience of the variety of gins being produced around the world. This was back in 2012 or 2013, at the emergence of the modern gin boom rather than where gin is now, with this huge explosion. Gin was much more niche. It was almost spearheaded by Sipsmith Distillery, and then all these pocket distilleries popped up around London and the UK. At the same time, markets such as Spain and America were producing completely different flavors. That's where I really cut my teeth and began to fall in love with the gin category. Eventually I realized that my heart was with alcohol rather than medicine, to my mother's dismay, and I decided to follow that career path and see where it could take me. I went from bartending and learning about flavor mixing into an assistant distilling role, learning how a distillery works, and then followed that progression until eventually, when I'd learned enough, I decided to go into consultancy. I was on my way to Australia when I bumped into this lovely couple, Tania and Marco, who were planning to open a distillery in Cambodia. They said, 'Come over for a month.' And that's the short version: I came out here and haven't left, almost six years later.

Markus: So your mother was always dreaming of you becoming the doctor. Now you are the spirit maker, or.

Alfie Amayo: I said, I think I still help in some way. You know, alcohol is still medicine to some people. You know, I'm helping in my own kind of way. So that's the voice of my mother. So I'm not as, you know, what actuality. I think I could actually say I have learned. I think one of the strongest parts behind medicine itself is bedside manner. And I think just being in the alcohol industry and just the plethora of people and learning how to talk to people in communication, I've learned a variety of different skill sets and I've actually fallen in love with the spirit industry as a whole.

Markus: Maybe one last question about your life before. I read that you have been at the Royal Academy in Sandhurst. And I also heard that all these royals are there. So are there some special stories? Did you meet special people? What. What about the alcohol there?

Alfie Amayo: I think I still help people in some way. You know, alcohol is still medicine to some people! I'm helping in my own kind of way - that's what I tell my mother. In all seriousness, I think one of the strongest parts of medicine is bedside manner. Being in the alcohol industry, meeting such a wide variety of people and learning how to communicate with them has taught me a range of different skills. And I've genuinely fallen in love with the spirits industry as a whole.

Markus: Yeah. So you didn't meet any royals there?

Alfie Amayo: I did not meet any royals. Prince Harry was way before my time, way before my time.

Markus: All right, okay, so back to the longest month of the world. When you came there, they were starting with a distillery, or was it already set up?

Alfie Amayo: There was nothing at the time. When I got here, the distillery was a concept. It wasn't actually an actual idea that come together yet the idea itself was, is it feasible to make gin in Cambodia? And so Tania and Marco had sourced a bunch of different gins from around the world, had developed a real affinity for the product. And so when they came to London and really, by just chance, fate, whatever you want to call it, serendipity, they bumped into me and I was in the right place at the right time. And actually remember when I first met them, they told me that they wanted to make gin in Phnom Penh. And I remember thinking to myself, one, I make gin, and two, where's Phnom Penh? Because I had no idea where that was. I had never been to this side of the world before. I'd never been to Asia. And so when they said they wanted to make gin in Phnom Penh, I was thinking to myself, I have no idea where that is. And I actually remember Googling. That's actually quite embarrassing. I remember googling, where is Phnom Penh? And spelling it wrong, silent H. And when they told me, I was like, okay, fantastic. I will. I will certainly come over here and see what happens. And I'm so glad that I did. But it was an idea when I came out here and then we saw the opportunity and the reception was very positive because Cambodia, especially in the expatriate community, has a really strong community bond, if you will, in terms of pushing new concepts, new ideas and that support and then on the back of that, because there are flavors out here that haven't been utilized in gin before. In my opinion, certainly from what I have not tried, we were able to produce something that was very unique, not for the sake of being unique, but unique for the sake of what we had on hand. And it was received, if I may say so, really well. And we've been able to really grow something I'm really proud of and it's

Markus: a very innovative company. I think also you have a very special system for distilling. It's a cube sized distillery. It's called iStill. I think maybe you can tell us a little bit about how you came to buy this type of still and how it works and what are the advantages and if you like it.

Alfie Amayo: There was nothing at the time. When I got here, the distillery was a concept; it hadn't actually come together yet. The idea was simply: is it feasible to make gin in Cambodia? Tania and Marco had sourced a range of gins from around the world and had developed a real affinity for the product. When they came to London, just by chance, fate, serendipity - whatever you want to call it - they bumped into me, and I was in the right place at the right time. I actually remember when I first met them, they told me they wanted to make gin in Phnom Penh. I remember thinking: one, I make gin; and two, where's Phnom Penh? I had no idea where it was. I'd never been to this side of the world before; I'd never been to Asia. I remember Googling 'Where is Phnom Penh?' and even spelling it wrong because of the silent H. When they told me more, I thought, okay, fantastic, I'll come over and see what happens. I'm so glad I did. It was only an idea when I came out here, but we saw the opportunity and received a very positive response. Cambodia, especially its expatriate community, has a strong sense of community when it comes to supporting new concepts and ideas. On top of that, there are flavors here that, from my experience, hadn't been used in gin before. We were able to produce something very unique - not for the sake of being unique, but because of what we had available locally. It was received very well, and we've been able to grow something I'm really proud of.

Markus: And what is the special thing about the ice tea? Is it the shape or is it the way it's heated or what is. Because when I saw it on the fair, I a lot of cubes and I was quite curious why every other thing is round or egg shaped or something like that. And now we have a cube.

Alfie Amayo: Sure. I'm actually distilling right now as I talk to you. We use iStill technology. When we first started the company, I did the R&D on a 20-liter alembic still that we got from Portugal. As we grew, we realized that a 20-liter still could only make around 30 or 40 bottles a week with a single distillation. We were working in a very small space in Phnom Penh, so we moved to a 300-liter alembic still. Then, in 2019, we started to get a lot more interest from neighboring countries and beyond Cambodia - Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Mongolia and, later, Spain and other countries in the West. We realized we needed to make a conscious decision about how far we could take the company and how much we expected to grow. Based on the interest and support we were receiving, we felt we could really grow the company and the idea. That's when we came across iStill technology. For listeners who don't know what it is, this might be an overly simplistic comparison, but if an alembic still is the horse and cart, the iStill is the Tesla. It uses much more technology, which is an interesting contrast in Cambodia as a developing market. For us, it allows us to draw out subtle, delicate flavors from pandan, jasmine and kaffir lime leaf, and to create unique spirits and bottled cocktails across our portfolio. It's exciting technology to bring to Cambodia, and it has really helped our production across the board.

Markus: No, no, no, please don't answer.

Alfie Amayo: Sure. There are many things. To describe the iStill for your listeners: it has a square boiler with a column directly on top. That's very different from traditional stills, which are generally round or cylindrical in design. There is no traditional head, if you will; it goes essentially straight from the boiler into the column. The column itself is about two and a half to three meters tall. I could talk about the technology for ages - I've completely geeked out over this thing - so I apologize if at any point I talk too much. Just cut me off, Markus, and say, 'Listen, we can move on.'

Markus: But that's another good point. Training your team. So you really had to bring new people in, train them how to work, how to do. Or did you have some foreigners also with you?

Alfie Amayo: There are a couple of things that are especially interesting from a production point of view. One key thing is that, on this one piece of equipment, we can ferment and distill on the grain. We can take an organic raw material such as cassava, put it into the still, ferment it to around 8% ABV, then distill directly on the grain and reach 95 to 96% alcohol in one process. There's no need for a transfer, which obviously reduces the risk of contamination. That's one exciting thing. You can almost look at the iStill as another distiller. From a distiller's point of view, one of the hardest things about being in Cambodia is the lack of experience, because distillation is still a relatively new science here. There is beer, and there is rice wine being produced in the provinces and countryside, but those spirits are often made using older methods and technology - essentially moonshine, with rice as the base. What we're able to do is take science and apply it to making spirits. That gives us consistency, but it also allows us to extract some really beautiful flavors. One thing I worked on for the better part of a year was a bottled lychee Martini: taking fresh lychees, extracting that fresh lychee essence on a molecular level, if you will, and applying it to a beautiful flavor profile that you can pour straight from a bottle into a glass and that tastes like cutting into a fresh lychee. It's very cool technology that enables us to do a variety of things, but mainly, from a distiller's point of view, it gives us consistency. Training my team has also been much easier on this than it was with a copper alembic still.

Markus: So the first thing you had to do was to learn the language, or did you already know something when you came there?

Alfie Amayo: I didn't even know what Phnom Penh was, so I had no idea. I did not speak any Khmer at the Moment, no, coming over here, I made it a goal. When I first came here, I didn't think I'd be here this long. So I. My initial reaction was, okay, there isn't, how do I put this in a nice way? There isn't a need, if you know what I mean, in the politest way for me to learn the language. Because when I first arrived here, I was going to only be here for a month. And then as time progressed and I began to fall in love with the country, with the people, I said, okay, I need to, I need to learn this. So I made a conscious effort to do lessons at the beginning. But even though we're so far away from the Western world, Cambodia is a very young population, a very, how to put this almost, it's, it's an emerging market as well. So even though English isn't the predominant language or the main language over here, it's very easy to communicate with individuals with English because they themselves want to learn the language themselves. So I find myself in many instances when I'm communicating in Khmer to my, to my colleagues or whether it's in a meeting, it will naturally gravitate to speaking in English anyways because people just want to chat and practice their English. So the language barrier hasn't really been an issue. And where it has been, I've been able to get by, and where I haven't been able to get by, my team have, have helped me a lot. So that's been an experience, to say the least.

Markus: Okay, so let's go a little bit further in your process. So you are also using a special method for the wood aroma in your gin, in your spirits, you're using the spirals. Maybe you can talk us a little bit about how you came into this and what it means for you.

Alfie Amayo: Of course, we are using something called Infusion Spirals, or rather the technology is Infusion Spiral. These are just wooden spirals themselves in which we are doing extraction for our spirits. As mentioned beforehand, when we first started our distillery and we produced our first spirit, it was a mixed reaction. As I mentioned, we had a lot of support, but we also had some clientele saying that they don't drink gin, they rather drink whiskey. And so we looked at the market itself and we realized whilst whiskey is the main market, we ourselves haven't got the ability with the knowledge. I certainly, I certainly didn't and still don't know how to make a whiskey myself. It's a very different style and I'm sure all the listeners know different Science, a different art form. And so we said, okay, with what we know how to do or with what we know what to do and how to do it. I make a gin. Can we apply the characters of a whiskey onto our gin? Can we make a gin? And can we mature it? Can we age it? And one of the pillars behind Seekers Independent Spirits has always been sustainability. So for those who might have come to Southeast Asia in the past, to your listeners, I think something they might realize is there's a lot of waste out here. Sustainability is something that's now starting to really be pushed forward because there's just so much waste, whether it's straws or plastic. And I remember looking at a graph itself, looking at the world's ocean waste, and the vast majority of it comes from Southeast Asia and the Philippines as well. And so sustainability has always been part of something we want to spearhead throughout entire production. And the iStill itself is a lot more sustainable in its energy expenditure to heat up the steel because it's insulated. And so further to that and trying to be. To be more sustainable, we realized that we didn't want to use barrels ourselves because obviously the transportation and also the waste afterwards. And so we looked at the spiral technology from oas spiral. And over the course of a year and a half of R&D, of trying Hungarian oak or French oak to American oak, and then testing different toasts, toast levels, and char levels, we came across two woods that really complemented the flavor profile, which are sugar maple, which comes from North America, and Amburana wood, which I now know is getting a lot more attention in the market for its almost sweet vanilla spice flavor coming through. And for those of you who aren't familiar with Amburana, Amburana words comes from South America, traditionally Brazil, where it's used to mature cachaça. And so we're using that word alongside sugar maple to age and mature our core Seekers Mekong Dry Gin.

Markus: Yeah, so you can bring different wood flavors in, different intensities in your spirits. And if you talk about R&D, I think that takes a while. So you had maybe 10, 15 different woods, different toastings, different time, which you have the spirals in the spirits and all these things. How long does it take, do you think, to really develop an interesting good spirit?

Alfie Amayo: Of course. We're using Infusion Spirals - wooden spirals that we use to extract wood character into our spirits. As I mentioned, when we first started the distillery and produced our first spirit, the reaction was mixed. We had a lot of support, but we also had clients saying they didn't drink gin; they preferred whisky. We looked at the market and realized that, while whisky was the main category, we didn't yet have the knowledge or ability to make whisky ourselves. It's a very different style, a different science and a different art form. So we asked ourselves: with what we do know how to make - gin - can we apply some of the characteristics of whisky? Can we mature or age a gin? One of the pillars behind Seekers Independent Spirits has always been sustainability. Anyone who has travelled in Southeast Asia may have noticed the amount of waste, whether from straws, plastic or other materials. Sustainability is now being pushed much more strongly, and it has always been something we wanted to build into our production. The iStill itself is more efficient in its energy use because it is insulated. Following that same approach, we decided we didn't want to rely on barrels because of the transport involved and the waste afterwards. So we looked at Infusion Spiral technology. Over roughly a year and a half of R&D, testing woods such as Hungarian oak, French oak and American oak, and then testing different toast and char levels, we found two woods that really complemented our flavor profile: sugar maple from North America and Amburana from South America. Amburana is now getting much more attention for its sweet, vanilla-spice character. Traditionally, it is used in Brazil to mature cachaça. We use Amburana alongside sugar maple to age and mature our core Seekers Mekong Dry Gin.

Markus: Yeah, I'm really looking forward to have the possibility to try it once. Of course.

Alfie Amayo: I think that's a loaded question. How long it takes really depends on how much time you're willing to give it. We wanted to make the best spirit we possibly could. At the time, this was my first experience taking a spirit and maturing it with wood, coming from a gin-production background. For me and the team, it involved a lot of learning: understanding why a particular wood gives a particular flavor, understanding vanillins and tannins, and understanding the influence of maturing at different alcohol strengths. We gave it a lot of time - at least 18 months. As I mentioned, we were not only testing different wood varieties, but also toast levels and what charring does. That's the beauty of using spirals. If you were using traditional barrels and wanted to test Hungarian oak at medium toast, light toast, heavy toast, and then different charring levels as well, your R&D costs would increase exponentially. Most up-and-coming distilleries like ours have a limited R&D budget. The spirals allowed us to put flavor at the forefront rather than cost. We didn't have to sacrifice flavor because of cost; we could experiment until we found exactly the profile we wanted. We're very happy with it. When we launched it, the reception was excellent, and we've won awards on the back of it, which I'm very proud of.

Markus: Yeah, perfect. When you talk about Amburana, it's really a fantastic wood, especially also in the beer world, a lot of aroma, as you said, vanilla, like tonka bean, like very spicy aromas. It can be even going to botanical aromas. Aromas and flower profile. It's a very, very versatile wood. But on the other hand, you talked about the sugar maple. What is the characteristic of this? What does this do in this, in

Alfie Amayo: the gin, of course, for us, I would say at a very simplistic level, if I can, if I can put it that way, just sort of define it. It rounds out the back end of our spirits. So what we found, or what I found with the sugar maple is not so much adding sweetness, but I think that's just a simplest way of looking at it. But it looks to just round out. It gives it the. A different flavor profile. Much more round, a fuller profile, just the texture, if you will. So Even when you mature, if you put a sugar maple spiral into a new make at 45% ABV and you leave that there for six weeks, you're not getting that much color difference either. You're only getting a slight caramel yellow hue. But it's not that heavy that you would expect after six weeks of maturation using a new spiral. So instead what you're getting is just these flavors, just they round out and get this beautiful smooth finish. And personally, I hate using the word smooth to describe the spirit, but it really does give a very nice clean finish to a new make. And that's why the sugar maple is certainly a wood that people should look at and experiment with.

Markus: And how about the climate? Is it affecting the speed or the aromas that are transferred by wood into the spirit? Or if you compare that with the experiences you made, maybe in London? When you talk about Amburana, it's a fantastic wood, especially in the beer world. It gives a lot of aroma - vanilla, tonka-bean-like notes, very spicy aromas, even botanical and floral notes. It's a very versatile wood. On the other hand, you also talked about sugar maple. What are its characteristics? What does it do in the gin?

Alfie Amayo: For us, at a very simplistic level, it rounds out the back end of the spirit. What I've found with sugar maple is not so much that it adds sweetness - although that's probably the simplest way to describe it - but that it rounds everything out. It changes the texture and gives the spirit a fuller, more rounded profile. Even if you put a sugar-maple spiral into a new make at 45% ABV and leave it there for six weeks, you don't get that much color change. You get only a slight caramel-yellow hue, not the heavy color you might expect after six weeks of maturation with fresh wood. Instead, the flavors round out and you get this beautiful, smooth finish. Personally, I hate using the word 'smooth' to describe a spirit, but in this case it really does give a very clean finish to a new make. That's why sugar maple is certainly a wood people should look at and experiment with. Of course, we're always thinking of new things. As I mentioned before, we are only one of three distilleries in Cambodia at craft scale: two gin distilleries and one rum distillery. So it's a very, very small industry. And so what the beauty of being out here is Our ability to really focus on experimentation, deliver new products quite quickly. That's the thing, as I'm sure listeners who belong to a craft distillery or even a craft brewery will appreciate. Compared to my experience in London, where it was larger and it was a lot more corporate and there's a lot more things to abide by and a lot more paperwork to do. When you're small, it enables you to be nimble, enables you to come up with ideas and bring it to market a lot faster. And the beauty of it is being in Cambodia, we can test out those new ideas and new spirits. And so as I mentioned beforehand, we just launched a bottled lychee Martini that I was, I was working on for a year. But in terms of new spirits or new things that we're wanting to work on, we have some new gins we're working on at the moment. We do some third-party distillations as well for people in the neighboring countries. And whiskey as well is something that we're going to be looking at to make in the very near future as well. So a whiskey would be the big project that we're currently moving towards and are outfitting our distillery for over the next two, three years.As we all know, when it comes to maturing anything with wood, temperature has an effect. We've seen this across the alcohol industry: making rum in a hot climate versus a cold climate has a huge impact on maturation time and on the flavor obtained in that time frame. The same is true in Cambodia. Right now it's 34 degrees Celsius, and I personally think today is kind of cold by comparison. With the higher temperatures we see here, the speed of maturation is significantly higher. There is a flourishing rum industry here as well, and some producers mature their rum for a maximum of around three years. But if you tasted a three-year-old rum from this climate, you could easily compare its wood influence with that of a five- or six-year-old rum from a cooler climate, simply because the temperature extracts so much wood character at a quicker rate. We are currently talking to France and to Spain. We had those plans in place, but then when COVID happened, it certainly put a delay on those, on those exports. And so now that we're in 2023, we're reigniting those conversations. So if any of your listeners are distributors and they're interested in Seekers, it would be a very welcome conversation that the team and I would have. But aside from that, we have some strong partners already in play for, for France. We're currently talking to Spain and those are two European countries we're talking to at the moment. Of course, we're always thinking of new things. As I mentioned, there are only a few craft distilleries in Cambodia, so it's a very small industry. The beauty of being here is our ability to focus on experimentation and bring new products to market quite quickly. I'm sure listeners who work in a craft distillery or craft brewery will appreciate that. Compared with my experience in London, where things were larger, more corporate and involved much more paperwork, being small enables you to be nimble. You can come up with ideas and bring them to market much faster. Being in Cambodia also means we can test those new ideas and new spirits here. As I mentioned, we recently launched a bottled lychee Martini that I had been working on for a year. We also have some new gins in development, and we do third-party distillations for people in neighboring countries. Whisky is another project we're moving towards, and we're outfitting the distillery for that over the next two or three years. Cambodia is home. Cambodia is home. Right now. There is a lot of excitement that we, that we have in the near future. My wife here, Robin, she herself, she moved from America to Cambodia where she was a reporter, now a lawyer. So my roots are here. And so I'm excited to see what we can really grow in the not-too-distant future.

Markus: Fantastic. So, last question. If people come to Cambodia to Phnom Penh and want to visit the distillery, is it possible? If they want to, of course.

Alfie Amayo: That goes without saying. That goes without saying. If you come to Phnom Penh, I will treat you like family. That's what I'm saying. It's a very small community. We have some fantastic bars, breweries as well, for those who want to just try some beer. And with the neighboring countries, Vietnam and Thailand, especially Vietnam, the craft scene there is just growing exponentially when it comes to beer. So there are a lot of beer focused stores, if you will, in Cambodia where you can just enjoy yourself and really see what's happening in the marketplace. It's an exciting place to be and Honestly, from the bottom of my heart, I welcome any of your listeners to come out here Just swing by Seekers and I will certainly have a cocktail or tour with them.

Markus: Great. So I'm also looking forward for my personal visit. So I'm planning on that already. Yeah, perfect. So thanks a lot for your time for the information and yes, see you soon, hopefully in person. And all the best for you for the distillery and for the products, of course. Thanks.

Alfie Amayo: I'm going to hold you to it. Thank you so much. Absolute pleasure. Thank you for your time.